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ASHRAE Journal Podcast Episode 5

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Don Colliver and Tom Phoenix

Demystifying Decarbonization

Building decarbonization is an industry trend, talking point and hot topic. But why is it important, how specifically might it affect building professionals and how is ASHRAE involved? The co-chairs of ASHRAE’s Task Force for Building Decarbonization—Donald Colliver, Ph.D., P.E., Presidential/Fellow/Life Member ASHRAE, and Thomas Phoenix, P.E., BEMP, Presidential/Fellow/Life Member ASHRAE—define, demystify and deconstruct building decarbonization.

Donald Colliver, left, and Thomas Phoenix, right

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  • Show Notes

    Building decarbonization is an industry trend, talking point and hot topic. But why is it important, how specifically might it affect building professionals and how is ASHRAE involved?

    On this episode of ASHRAE Journal Podcast, the co-chairs of ASHRAE’s Task Force for Building Decarbonization, Donald Colliver, Ph.D., P.E., Presidential/Fellow/Life Member ASHRAE, and Thomas Phoenix, P.E., BEMP, Presidential/Fellow/Life Member ASHRAE, define decarbonization (2:45), discuss what the building industry is doing to reduce energy use and emissions (3:50) and share who will be affected by building decarbonization (6:10).

    Later, Colliver and Phoenix talk about the plausibility of current carbon goals (10:40) and dispel common myths and misconceptions about decarbonization (16:39).

    Then, they wrap up the episode by discussing the task force and its ongoing work (19:54).

    Want to learn more about the task force? Check this article out.

    For more information about the ASHRAE’s Task Force for Building Decarbonization, visit ashrae.org/decarb.

    What topics do you want to learn about, and who do you want to hear from? Email podcast@ashrae.org with suggestions and feedback.

  • Guest Bios

    Donald Colliver, Ph.D., P.E., Presidential/Fellow/Life Member ASHRAE, is professor and Director of Graduate Studies in the Biosystems Engineering Department at the University of Kentucky. Professionally, Don has conducted and managed extensive research in energy usage in buildings and industrial facilities, solar energy, air infiltration and ventilation, building codes and the analysis of climatological data for determination of design weather conditions. He has lectured in 20 countries with his teaching emphasis in solar PV systems design; indoor environmental control; industrial energy auditing; building energy modeling and analysis; decarbonization; and sustainable design. He was the ASHRAE Society President in 2002-2003 and initiated, and served as the leader for ten years, of the Advanced Energy Design Guides. He has served as Director of the KY Industrial Assessment Center since 2014 and participated in over 80 energy assessments in industrial facilities. He was named co-chair of the ASHRAE Task Force for Building Decarbonization in the spring of 2021.

    Thomas Phoenix, P.E., BEMP, Presidential/Fellow/Life Member ASHRAE, is a principal with CPL Architects & Engineers in their office in Greensboro, N.C.. He has a B.S. degree in engineering from North Carolina State University. He is a Registered Professional Engineer in North Carolina and six other states and has over 35 years of experience in the design, operation and maintenance of building mechanical and energy systems in commercial, educational, government and medical office facilities. Tom has been an active member of ASHRAE since 1982 and was elevated to the grade of Fellow in 2011. He served as Society President in 2014-15 and on ASHRAE’s Board of Directors for 11 years. Tom is the chair of the Advanced Energy Design Guides Steering Committee and has chaired the Publishing and Education Council. An ASHRAE Certified Building Energy Modeling Professional (BEMP), he is an ASHRAE Distinguished Lecturer and also serves on the Board of Directors, and is currently Treasurer, of the National Institute of Building Sciences (NIBS).

  • Transcription

    ASHRAE Journal:

    ASHRAE Journal presents.

    Don Colliver:

    Yes, we could just cut off the heating and cooling and the ventilation systems, but that's not going to be a viable solutions in most parts of the world. The challenge is maintaining a comfortable, safe, and healthy living environment while reducing our energy consumption.

    ASHRAE Journal:

    Episode five. ASHRAE's Task Force for Building Decarbonization co-chairs Tom Phoenix and Don Colliver define what building decarbonization actually is and explain ASHRAE's role in this industry trend.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Hi, I'm Mary Kate McGowan, managing editor of ASHRAE Journal. I'm here with Tom Phoenix and Don Colliver, and I'm going to let them introduce themselves.

    Tom Phoenix:

    Hi, I'm Tom Phoenix. In addition to being one of the co-chairs of the task force for building decarbonization, I also chair the advanced energy design guide steering committee, which is composed of representatives from ASHRAE, AIA, the Illuminating Engineering Society, and USGBC. And I also currently serve on the board of directors of the National Institute of Building Sciences, NIBS. And I'm also an ASHRAE presidential member as well.

    Don Colliver:

    Hi, I'm Don Colliver. Glad to be with you today. I am the other co-chair of the task force for building decarbonization. I was president of ASHRAE several years ago, and Tom mentioned the advanced energy design guides a few seconds ago. I started that when I was president of ASHRAE, as one of the goals of how can ASHRAE help develop things that go better than code. What I found during my presidential year was many of our members were designers who were saying we need to do more than just what's the minimum. And so therefore, we pull together this advanced design guides, which has been a very successful publication within ASHRAE. And so as part of that, grew into this discussion on decarbonization.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Thanks guys for being here today, we really appreciate it, and I'm looking forward to this conversation. First, let's kick this off. So what is building decarbonization, and why are we talking about it today?

    Don Colliver:

    Thank you for that question, Mary Kate. I think this is critical for this whole discussion. Building decarbonization is really the process of reducing the carbon or the CO2 equivalent that's attributable to buildings. Now the pathway to building decarbonization involves many elements. It involves the building design, its construction, its operation, and then also how it's occupied.

    We typically say that there are three primary ways for reducing the building operating CO2 equivalent emissions. The first of those is one that we've in ASHRAE have been working on for many years and is one that we well aware of and that is the energy efficiency. Increasing the efficiency of the energy that's used in the building. The second leg of this three-legged stool is the decarbonization of the electrical grid. That is how can we have the electrical grid use less fossil fuels? Here we're talking typically about using renewables. And then the third leg of the stool is the transition to electrification for our building energy needs.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Okay. So how's the building industry doing right now in regard to building decarbonization, emissions, and energy use?

    Don Colliver:

    Well, the main thing is that buildings worldwide, buildings and their construction, use about 35% of the energy in the world. When we look at that, then we talk about what are the emissions? What's the carbon emissions, or carbon equivalent emissions? And we see that residential buildings will use about 17% and the non-residential buildings will use about 11% or so. That is including both the energy that's used while the building is being operated, but also it includes that carbon emissions that is from the production of the electricity that's used within the buildings. So we're looking at 11% for non-residential, we're looking for 17% for residential.

    So what it is, we see that non-residential buildings use about 11% and residential buildings use about 17% worldwide of the emissions come out of those buildings. In addition, we see that the building construction industry accounts for about 10% of the emissions worldwide. This is both in the construction of the building and in the building materials itself go into the building. So all that told, roughly we're looking at almost 40%, or four tenths, of the worldwide emissions are attributable to buildings. What we're doing can greatly reduce emissions numbers.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    With non-residential buildings accounting for 11% and residential buildings accounting for 17%, I guess what's behind that difference?

    Don Colliver:

    Well, a couple of things. One of them is remember these are worldwide numbers. So I think at the end of the day, what we're saying is, is yes, there is more emissions from the residential buildings, both because of the number of the buildings, and many times it's because of the age of the residencies.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    That totally makes sense. This topic is just so large, and I'm sure it's going to affect almost all, if not all, of the people working in the building industry. But who in particular are going to be most affected by building decarbonization?

    Tom Phoenix:

    Well, the obvious answer is everybody. Building decarbonization is important to everyone, particularly those of us that work in the building industry. Designers have to begin to pay attention to this in their designs. Builders, contractors have to begin to pay attention to this as they select materials, and what's the embodied carbon in those materials and the processes that they use. And then once the building is built, it really is dependent on owners and operators to keep things running like they should. So this whole discussion, if we really are going to make a change and affect the climate, this effort is really going to affect everybody. And everyone is going to have to have an impact on it.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    So with pretty much everyone being affected by this, I guess, is that why ASHRAE decided to get involved?

    Tom Phoenix:

    Well, it's kind of funny. I will tell you when we first started this effort, when the leadership of ASHRAE last year got in touch with Don and I and asked us to coordinate this task force, one of the questions that we heard really very quickly and very early is why is ASHRAE getting involved in this? And my response to that is why is ASHRAE not involved already? Because the climate change and the associated decarbonization of buildings as it relates to climate change are critical subjects.

    And this all ties into ASHRAE's mission of serving humanity. And so carbon emissions is a global issue. And ASHRAE certainly has an international presence. We have members in over 130 countries. So we really can affect what happens on a global basis. And ASHRAE is already the standard authority for things like energy usage and energy efficiency, and those are critical components to achieving building decarbonization. And so the answer to your question is, why is ASHRAE—It's not, should we be involved? It's why didn't we get involved a lot earlier?

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    So from a higher level view, we're seeing companies and cities and organizations saying we're going to cut emissions, and we're going to meet environmental goals and be zero carbon by X year. And it just seems like a lot of goals and plans right now. But what is a timeline for people to start seeing action?

    Tom Phoenix:

    Well, there are a lot of goals that have already been set. The current administration has set a goal for getting to a certain percentage of reduction. Cities and municipalities and states in the United States have set goals. If you look at them, each of the goals are a little different. Some want to be 40% better than what they were in 1999. A lot of the goals, the current federal government goals are based on reductions based on 2005 levels of carbon. And so they're all a little different.

    But the short answer to your question is that you will begin to see impact immediately. There was actually a news article today about the current administration's goals. The United States has now rejoined the Paris Agreement. A lot is happening right away. The definition of impact, I think, is pretty important. Are you going to see major climate change and cooling and all that stuff in the next 10 years? No. No, this is a long term effect. But we have to start immediately. And that's what we're doing now.

    Don Colliver:

    So if I'm going to add to that, Tom, I think one of the things that has commonly been said is that we're trying to be carbon neutral by 2050 in order to reduce the climate temperature increase. So being carbon neutral by 2050, I think is kind of some of the suggestions that the UN is putting in. And in order to get that, I think some of our goals are saying that we need to be carbon neutral by 2030.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    So how plausible is that? Are there regions of the world that are better suited for this challenge? Or what barriers are out there that could prevent the industry from achieving this goal in the given timeframe?

    Don Colliver:

    Well, obviously we do have the areas in the world that use a lot less HVAC than other locations. And in those cases, it is easier. Tom and I were talking recently, and I says, "Well, in my hometown, I bet there are 10,000 buildings that are carbon neutral operational." And I got this big frown from Toma and he says, "What?" And I says, "Well, how many dog houses do I have in my town?" The key is that, yes, we could just cut off the heating and cooling and the ventilation systems, but that's not going to be a viable solutions in most part of the world. The challenge is maintaining a comfortable, safe, and healthy living environment while reducing our energy consumption. So there are some places in the world, this is going to be easier than others. Yes.

    Tom Phoenix:

    In colder climates, the emphasis is on heating systems. And there are a lot of colder climates that still use fossil fuel as their number one source for heat. I was actually on a conference call about an hour and a half ago. And the new numbers for CBECS, the Department of Energy's commercial building energy consumption survey, the new numbers for CBECS are out. And in parts of the Northeast, they still use 17%, I think, was the number I heard this morning, of the buildings up there still use fuel oil as their main heating source. That's a fossil—getting away from that is going to be a bit of a challenge. In warmer climate you have humidity issues you have to deal with and all of that. And so, yes, it's going to be easier in some places than it is in others.

    The other part of that discussion and that question, however, Mary Kate, is since we are a global society, we want to coordinate with what's going on around the world. I will have to tell you, and everyone on our task force is very aware of this, is that the United States is way behind the rest of the world in terms of what has been advanced in some of the technology. And certainly in terms of their standards and codes. One of the numbers that gets thrown around a lot is that the European Union and the European Commission, their standards and codes are about six years ahead of where we are. And so that's pretty significant. So yes, the location has a big effect on how we tackle this decarbonization effort.

    Don Colliver:

    And I do recall, when I was president even a few years ago, when I would travel to Europe, the discussion was what are the kilograms of carbon that this building produces as opposed to what are the kilowatt hours, this energy, that these buildings produce? So there is a major cultural difference between many parts of the world, that realize that carbon is a much bigger issue, or has been a much bigger issue for a period of time.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    With North American countries shifting toward prioritizing lower carbon emitting technologies, what does this mindset shift mean for existing technologies?

    Tom Phoenix:

    Well, there's a couple things that are pretty obvious. One is if we're going to use energy and get away from energy that may produce carbon emission, the electric utility grid, for example, needs to produce electricity cleaner than they do now. That's a big discussion in our task force. We have a whole group in our task force that's looking at this. Renewable energy, and things like photovoltaics and wind power, and there's a long list of others. But renewable energy is becoming a significant percentage of the generation of electricity is extremely important. And that's technology that continues to advance.

    The other technology that is catching on is the whole discussion of sequestration and capturing carbon. Don and I were talking yesterday and right before we talked, I was actually in the car, and I was listening to a story on NPR about a company in Iceland. And when I got home, that same story popped up on two of my little internet news feeds. There's a company in Iceland that is pulling the air using these large fans and using geothermal energy to run the fans. And then the fans will pull the air out of the atmosphere and clean the carbon out of it. And then they store the carbon for later use. In our world that's known as carbon sequestration. That's cleaning and storing the carbon. Those are new technologies that are going to come along and certainly help with this effort.

    Don Colliver:

    Another technology that many people talk about when we're dealing with decarbonization is a greater use or utilization of heat pumps. We're seeing that our manufacturers are developing heat pumps that are more efficient. They're developing heat pumps that can go down to cooler temperatures. So I think the heat pump technology being moved to much of the world that's not currently using it is another one of those technologies that's pretty commonly accepted as one of the things that's going to be changing.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    And of course, there's always some misconceptions about different technologies. But I guess in general, what are some of those myths that we can demystify about building decarbonization?

    Don Colliver:

    Well, thanks for that question, Mary Kate. I think that we have one major myth is that decarbonization means zero carbon attributable to our buildings. That's not the case. Decarbonization doesn't mean zero carbon. Now note the prefix de. Decarbonization is the process of reducing the carbon used. And we're talking about both the operational carbon, that is the carbon that is being used or being produced while the building is being operated. But also we're talking about the carbon that is embodied in the materials. How much carbon did it take to make that material? How much carbon was used in the bulldozer as these things were being extracted from the ground? So when we're talking about embodied carbon, we're talking about from cradle to grave of the carbon in the material. So the real misconception is that decarbonization is zero carbon attributable buildings. And that's just not the case. We're saying that it's not zero carbon. It's the process of getting there.

    Tom Phoenix:

    Just to add another bullet to that, the other conversation that we have heard a lot lately is that the building industry is no longer worried about how much energy we're saving. The focus is no longer on energy efficiency. The focus is 100% now on getting to zero carbon and building decarbonization. That is certainly not the case. And in fact, you cannot achieve a zero carbon building unless you also basically achieve a net-zero energy building. And so the focus has not changed. And that's a bit of misinformation that's out there as well. The two are not exclusive. They actually have to work hand in hand.

    Don Colliver:

    I totally agree. Totally agree. Good point. I think another area that questions being raised are what are the metrics? There are a lot of different metrics when we're talking about the carbon and the decarbonization of buildings. The energy usage, what all does that include? What are the boundaries of the energy usage? Are we talking about at the building? Are we talking about at the site? Are we talking about the carbon that was used in the production of, for instance, the electricity or the transportation that was used to deliver that, for instance, the fuel oil that Tom was talking about earlier? So metrics is one of those big areas that there is a lot of disparity actually around the world. And trying to get good definitions of what those metrics are and harmonization of those is one of those key questions that we're being asked a lot.

    ASHRAE Journal:

    Thanks for listening to the ASHRAE Journal Podcast. We want your ideas. What topics do you want to hear about, and who do you want to hear it from? Email us your ideas at podcast@ashrae.org. That is podcast@A-S-H-R-A-E.org. Let's get back to the episode.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Let's talk about the task force. Y'all are definitely busy, have a lot going on. So could you share some of the things that y'all have been focusing on?

    Tom Phoenix:

    Well, we've been in operation since February of this year, as you probably already know. And we meet regularly. But what you quickly understand is, and you mentioned it in your opening remarks, that this is a huge subject, and it's a global subject. It's a huge subject. And you can't just run at it without some plan. And so one of the early things we did was look at and break this down into what we called the areas of concern. And after a lot of initial discussion, we broke it down into nine areas of concern.

    There are 15 members that were appointed by the ASHRAE leadership to be on the task force. One of those members is currently chairing each of nine working groups. And each of the working groups have been assigned to look at each of the nine various areas of concern. And then we put out a request for volunteers to help. Because the 15 folks that were appointed to the original task force certainly can't do this by themselves. And we currently have a database of over 140 volunteers, people who wanted to help us. And about over 100 of them have now been assigned to one of the nine working groups.

    And so the short answer to your question is the task force is doing a lot. And these working groups are really exciting if you attend. That's where all the work is being done. Those working groups are populated with people who have lots of expertise in the various areas. We have working groups that are looking after the operational carbon in the building and the embodied carbon in the building. We have a working group that's looking at the intersection and the interaction of a building with the electric grid utility. We have another group that's looking at this sequestration that we talked about earlier.

    And so we have another group looking at standards. In fact, there are three separate groups looking at standards. One's looking at equipment standards, one's looking at current building standards, and the other group is looking at potential performance standards for this. And so we have a very selective group of experts that have volunteered their time to help the task force. And the work that we've seen just in the few months that we've been together is just fantastic. So one of the things I would really like to do in this podcast is to thank all of those volunteers because we couldn't do this without you.

    Don Colliver:

    And I totally agree with that. So the task force will meet twice a month. Each one of the working groups typically meet twice a month. And within those working groups, they're anywhere from two to five subgroups, and they will meet twice a month. So this is a huge buffet. So what we're trying to do is to provide that menu so that these working groups can pick up a particular, as Tom called it, a key area of a concern, and try to use the best expertise from around the world to try to pull together information that's going to be of help to our ASHRAE members, be of help to policy makers, be of help to the general public so that what we can do is really solve this problem and build a better world.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Awesome. I'd just like to point out that information about the task for force is available on ASHRAE's website. So you can type in ashrae.org/decarb and go right to that information.

    Don Colliver:

    Things are continually changing. And the website is dynamic, is continually being added to, I guess, I should say that as well. What we're doing is people will suggest things to be put onto the web, and the task force will actually vote on, yes, this is good, valid information that needs to be distributed. And so therefore at that stage of the game, it goes up on the web. So every meeting, we are seeing things being proposed. And it's taken us a little while to get that information pulled together. The key component is that we want to make sure that we get it right before it gets out. And so that's why things have not turned around in the first month or two because we want to make sure that, A, we're providing valid information, we're providing information that our members want, and we're providing information that our members need.

    Tom Phoenix:

    And let me say this, looking ahead a little bit, that information will obviously change. Technologies are changing. There'll be advances in the way things are done and advances in codes and standards. And when that changes, and it affects the information that is basically the number one deliverable of our task force. The website that ASHRAE has developed for us, that's going to be dynamic. It's going to be very dynamic, and things are always going to change. And the goal of the task force is to keep this information that Don just described, keep it up to date, and make it valuable for all of our members.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    I guess, what can people anticipate seeing from the task force next?

    Tom Phoenix:

    I'll jump in and answer that in one way. The information exchange is already beginning. We already have a number of seminars. There will be a few presentations at the upcoming winter meeting in Las Vegas from the task force. The webpage is certainly a portal into a lot of information, but we're also planning on some other ways to provide that information. And we are already committed to sponsor an international conference on decarbonization on October 6th and 7th of 2022. We will have ASHRAE Task Force for Building Decarbonization is sponsoring the International Conference on Building Decarbonization in Athens, Greece. And so again, this is very much a global effort, and we already have commitments from the European Commission and some other folks to help us with this conference. And so the information exchange that you're alluding to, Mary Kate, is already started to happen, and we've already begun to put together several different products to get us along those lines.

    Don Colliver:

    And if I can add to that, I think one of the things that we need to remember is that ASHRAE over the years has produced documents that are important to decarbonization. We have a tremendous number of standards that are already out. We have a number of publications, papers, books that are already out. I'm sitting here getting ready to teach a class, and I've got my Handbook of Fundamentals here in front of me. And the information there is going to help our folks build better buildings, design better buildings. The advanced design guides. That is moving our whole industry of the built environment to being more conservative of energy and our resources. So yes, we are adding a bunch of new stuff, but what we've been doing for decades really is important for this whole effort as well.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    So kind of changing course a little bit. So decarbonization, obviously with you guys and the task force is a priority for the society. But also another priority for the society is resiliency and just creating a more resilient built environment. My question is how does decarbonization and resiliency intersect? How could decarbonization measures affect the stability of the electric grid or any other resiliency concerns and initiatives?

    Don Colliver:

    Well, I think resilience is just broader than what a lot of people think of as climate adaptation. Resiliency really is identifying and planning for future adverse events, whether they're natural or they're man-made. So what we have to do in resilient design is a risk assessment. What should be developed at the beginning of the project in order to identify those potential risks to the design and the occupants and the property in the community itself? And then these risks are prioritized and the process, the cost impacts, need to be prioritized and engineering liability can be managed in this way. So that where design failure or safety isn't an immediate concern, prioritizing the climate change mitigation through energy efficiency and decarbonization before we get to climate change adaptation. However, we do know that a resilient decarbonized design is going to minimize our carbon emissions now, and as well, what we will do as we'll plan and support for future system changes in the capacity and the controls and the utilities and so forth.

    Tom Phoenix:

    Yeah, the resiliency discussion, Mary Kate, ties directly to one of my comments earlier about how energy efficiency and decarbonization are tied together. It's important to pick up on what Don just said to design a building that is energy efficient so that if you unfortunately had to be the victim of an adverse event, more energy efficient buildings, even buildings that have their own renewable energy, are much more resilient and can sustain the effects of an adverse event better. And if you design them, as Don just mentioned, early on to be energy efficient, and therefore also low carbon, you stand a much better chance of surviving an adverse effect.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Just to start wrapping it up, what are y'all excited about any topics or technical guidance or technical discussions that could come out of the task force work? Anything that you're just like, uh, can't wait till we get there.

    Tom Phoenix:

    That's a great question. And this is exciting in general, I think. I don't know that I could put my finger, Mary Kate, on if we do this, then we've hit the home run I'm looking for. I think, as we said earlier, it's something that ASHRAE has to be involved in. We have the ability to bring together lots of efforts that may currently not be so coordinated around the world and if we can do that and we can get everybody working together toward somewhat of a common goal, then I would declare that as a victory. And using our information exchange portals and those kinds of things, as long as we provide the resources that will help our members and help society in general, and can bring everybody together toward this goal, then we will have achieved what we wanted to.

    Don Colliver:

    And I'll follow up on that. I think that what happens is that ASHRAE has a tremendous opportunity here to impact the future of the world, impact how our children, grandchildren, and their grandchildren will perceive the world. What happens is we've got over 50,000 members in 130 countries. These are folks that go all the way from building design to actually setting policies, or educating folks about what policies need to be done in order to make a world that is going to reach our goal of carbon reduction.

    So I think what it is that I don't know of another organization that has that potential to have that worldwide impact at the ground level. We have individual chapters that actually can make a difference. And I think at the end, what happens is, is yes, we can set national goals. We can set worldwide goals. But it only gets implemented when it gets down all the way down to the individual city, or the state, or the province. That individuals that can really make the impact and actually implement it at the ground level. And I think that's what's so valuable about our society is that we have people, feet on the ground, who can do that around the world.

    Mary Kate McGowan:

    Well, thanks guys for joining me on this episode of ASHRAE Journal Podcast. We appreciate it.

    If anyone has any questions for the decarbonization task force, you can email them at decarb@ashrae.org. That is D-E-C-A-R-B @A-S-H-R-A-E.org. Thanks for listening.

    ASHRAE Journal Podcasting is managing editor, Mary Kate McGowan; producer and associate editor, Chadd Jones; assistant managing editor, Jeri Alger; and associate editors, Tani Palefski and Rebecca Matyasovski. Copyright ASHRAE.

    The views expressed in this podcast are those of individuals only, and not of ASHRAE's sponsors or advertisers. Please refer to ashrae.org/podcast for the full disclaimer.

     

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